Weekly magazine through Internet Indio Gris
Nº 99. THURSDAY, APRIL 18 TH ,2002



En las cumbres aladas


Indio Gris




Sunday, APRIL 14th, 2002

 Carmen Salamanca: Let's see, Menassa.

 Miguel Oscar Menassa: Yes, Ms, how do you do?

 CS: Very well. Good morning.

 MOM: Good morning, princess of the night. How are you doing?

 CS: "My lost apple inhabits your darkness".

 I have been reading your book, which we will present next Tuesday, Monologue between the cow and the moribund, well, really it was last Tuesday because this interview will be published next Thursday.

 MOM: Well, we are doing it now, we are not going to cheat on people.

 CS: Next Tuesday, then.

 MOM: We're not going to tell people that we do it on Thursdays directly through Internet.

 CS: No…

 MOM: We do it on Sundays, we don't sleep so that the Spanish people can have fresh news.

 CS: There is a statement which is repeated in these two books that we are going to present: "The silence of peoples is the beginning of their destruction", it is in both, in Letters to my wife and Monologue between the cow and the moribund.

 MOM: Maybe what I speak with you might be useful for the world (please, clarify this in the interview), but I when I say the world, I'm speaking about Cero Group. When I say that my verses are the best in the world, I mean that "in Cero Group there is no poet who can reach the dimension I can reach in my verses". In the world, if nobody knows the world, and besides, the news we know about it, are a bunch of lies, they are previously made up, don't you see that the Spanish journalists don't understand anything. A news arrives given by an stupid person  and they broadcast it, it already happened with this question about Felipe Gonzalez and now with Chávez. It is still not known if Chávez resigned or didn't and they are criticising him as a dictator since 48 hours ago, it can't be done.

 CS: He took power of the country again.

 MOM: Chavéz didn't ask for political asylum to Cuba because Fidel Castro has said that he didn't and that it seems that they want to restate him because they want to restate legality. Then I say: didn't anybody perceive anything?

 The parenthesis is only to tell you that when I talk of the world I talk about the Cero Group world. In any case if you want, make it extensive, for example, to the world of poetry, but also circumscribed to poetry in Spanish and to the bad translations which I had been able to have access. When I speak of psychoanalysis it is more general, because there is only one psychoanalysis, everybody knows what psychoanalysis is, of course, but also according to Freud's texts.

 So that what is happening now doesn't happen, I'm explaining to you that when I say "The silence of peoples is the beginning of their destruction", I'm talking about the psychoanalytical communities, I'm not talking of the world, I'm not talking of the communist China, nor talking of the United States. I'm talking about the world I'm studying. When I say "The silence of peoples is the beginning of their destruction" I'm thinking of the psychoanalytical communities which, in order to silence things about genital matters, I say it this way to be understood, matters of the animal in man, to silence that and silencing money questions, what happens is that they have been degrading themselves until abandoning the psychoanalytical field, that is what I say.

 But it is also true that in spite of the recent intervention, it is also certain that a people, for example, the Argentine people that remained in silence for a lot of years, now that they also want to speak they can't., they are somewhat destroyed, somewhat deteriorated, silence deteriorates a little.

 When I arrived in Spain in 1975/76, the Spanish people suffered from the same thing, I already know that the brain is useful for this and that and that words link one another indistinctly, but the Spanish people when I arrived in Spain spoke with 200 words, that is to say that they were in a state of mental feebleness. The silence of the peoples and not saying that this might mean the collective unconsciousness, is the beginning of their own destruction, mental deterioration, nervous deterioration, sexual deterioration, deterioration of the imagination and fundamentally the nullity of the symbolic process, the question matter is all imaginary, then the only thing I want is to eliminate the other, but as the other is stronger, he is a dictator, I remain at ease, I wash my hands.

 So the world is the world I control. We also had two or three political sessions where we spoke about this and the other, that I evidently don't deal with those fields, but it is also a lie because a school of psychoanalysis that doesn't have a clear political conception not only referred to psychoanalytical politics but also to the economic politics, I don't know if it is a school of psychoanalysis.

 Of all the criticisms we had received from the interviews, the only one I clearly admit is the one that says why I only deal with the Spanish politics, why don't I deal with Argentine politics… of course, but then I should dedicate myself to politics, I would have to abandon the things I do.

 What I want to say is that when someone feels so brilliant as myself, so sharp as to make a commentary that I haven't already made, he can do it and we will publish it. It was that.

 CS: This book, Monologue between the cow and the moribund, looks like a conversation among the poet, the psychoanalyst, the man, the different functions you carry on, or the diverse places through which the writer goes by. How is that cohabitation? How is that being-not being? I mean, because there is a moment where the psychoanalyst says to the poet "look at me, I am also a writer, not only you".

 MOM: Sure, but when the psychoanalyst clarifies that he is a writer, he is already telling him that he is hired, that he is hired for something, or by some idea, or by some state or by some institution, instead the poet is a singer without an owner.

 When I write those psychoanalytical texts, I'm already bought. Why? Well, because of my psychoanalytical knowledge, because I'm the Director of a School of Psychoanalysis, because everybody is waiting for me to say how I understood the texts or how I produced them, or which was my productive reading. The poet instead, excuse me, is like a woman, who is apparently connected, but God knows what a woman is connected to. I'm sure that poetry and the police are linked to something, but God knows what they are linked to, because if the police were linked to the law we would be living better. And if poetry were truly linked to freedom, it would be more fun for us.

 CS: "Life was for the poet, his written words".

 MOM: Yes, of course, because the one who thinks that his life is the life lived… To say that he is a fool or a madman is to insult more than half humanity. If last time we complained that only half humanity has food, now we could say that 98% of humanity can hardly realise before dying that they are mortal. 

 CS: "In the beginning everyone will have their truth, afterwards they will also learn to lie: to live knowing that they are going to die but as if that will never occur, that is the only fun in life".

 MOM: The guy says that it is the only fun in life because we are a mortal specie, we come from sexes, masculine and feminine, from male and female. All of the species.

 I tell you how the foolish man sometimes reflects without reflecting. The species that reproduce themselves through a male and a female are mortal, that's why they reproduce themselves to maintain the specie, but of course, one prefers to have been born from a pumpkin. He is degraded, he was born from a pumpkin, he wasn't born from a man and a woman, but better degraded but immortal, the guy says, than pleased mortal.

 CS: Better degraded mortal than pleased immortal.

 MOM: I think that you put it upside-down, later we'll see it recorded. Exactly upside-down, I think.

 CS: I think the phrase that says "knowing that he is going to die, to live as if it would never happen, it is the only fun of life", has to do with the craft of the poet.

 I did one last poem in a poem book which will be published by the estimated, nice, lusty, intelligent Cero Group Editorial, where in a poem called "Poetry came and told me", poetry says to the man, the man who knows that he's going to die and doesn't care, he knows that each love kills him and nevertheless he falls in love, he knows that when he writes he dies and nevertheless he writes. I don't know if the man living together with the poet knows, but the poet knows that he is going to die. But his function is to tell things for the time when he no longer will be here, then look if he knows, that is to say, we don't know if the man accompanying the poet knows, but the poet knows.

 AD: To know isn't conscious knowledge. Not the one who knows consciously, intellectually that he is going to die is a mortal. To fear death is to be immortal because you have already gone through death, how would you fear it and you haven't gone through it.

 MOM: Let's see what else you have read, did you already write what you are going to put?

 CS: I have some ideas. Well, yes, I wrote something though I don't like it.

 MOM: What did you write? Why? Ask me that I'll end up making the interview to you.

 CS: "I'm totally convinced that life can only be lived, nobody can think his life".

 MOM: No, because ask the psychoanalyst, the one who thinks his life is an obsessive neurotic, poor him, don't see how he suffers. Life can't be thought, how one could think life. It is as if one would say, "yes, I think a lot while I play" or "I think a lot about playing". You cannot think, you have to play.

 CS: The time to think about life would be afterwards, when you write, when the poet writes. 

 MOM: I thank you that you want to normalise me but it is as I tell you, life can't be thought, nor before, nor after; what is thought is something else, they are concepts, notions.

 CS: I agree with you, life can't be thought, life must be lived, but later when the writer writes maybe one finds out what has happened.

 MOM: He writes, you said it, when the writer writes, he writes. And, what has he done with life? He has taken it away from reality, then he realises that life can't be thought, it can be thought in the writing of the poet who thinks that he is telling you about life, but that is the poet's writing, that is already the poem, it is already the essay…

 AD: Besides, if life can only be done, of course, later you know about the life you led, after leading it.

 MOM: Only after you'll know, of course. This is very important, when a students says: "when I understand what you give me, I'll pay", you'll never understand what we are giving you if you don't pay in advance. Let's see if you can feel the taste of lettuce without paying the greengrocer first what the lettuce costs, or without spending four months waiting for the lettuce to grow. There are things which man can only understand by doing them and we don't even know if it is comprehension or reading of information.

 CS: I remember that Freud says that there are concepts that can only be learnt, comprehended, through analysis.

 MOM: It was a work where he dialogues with an imaginary young man, and a moment comes when he says "what follows I can't explain it to you because as you have many sexual problems, if you don't psychoanalyse…"

 AD: Or if not you transform yourself to understand it.

 MOM: If you don't cause a transformation to understand it you won't understand it, because in order to understand this I'm explaining to you is against what you are, therefore, or you change or the mechanism of the ego prevent you from listening what I'm telling you.

 CS: He says: "With the senseless quill pen of gossiping I'll tell the history, it will be in verse, clever, clumsy in the crossroads dilemma of having to state something". This last phrase caught my attention, "in the crossroads dilemma of having to state something". History always states.

 MOM: History states for the one who's going to read history, but to state something is always something commercial, there the poet is referring to the fact that to combat the cultural intertwining of Madrid, one should asseverate things, one should act a little like them, the poet refuses to become one of them, he finally concludes that the only way to change a situation is not being like them, so that he remains a little helpless. But, of course, a poet who believes that he remains helpless because he thinks that he has no cultural acceptance is a fool. I'm talking about myself, because sometimes I say "No one loves me" and it happens that I write a daily poem, how is it that there is no one who loves me? The Spanish language has an appetite for me. You being so Madrilène, sometimes, you must also feel angry because the Spanish language has more appetite for me than for you.

 CS : Is that a question?

 MOM: I went on a spree right now.

 AD: An interpretation.

 MOM: You want to win, don't you cow. "If they humiliate you a hundred times, you stand up / another ten, another hundred, another five hundred times: / your falls will not be so violent / nor even, by law, will they be so many."

 "Act as God who never cries; / or as Lucifer, who never prays; / or like the oak grove whose grandeur / needs of the water, and it does not implore for it…"

 For example, this is a genial poet, but I'm not like him, I think that the only thing one can't surrender is poetry, afterwards everything must be surrendered. Because to act like God who never cries we should live in another world because in the world we live in, beyond the matter if we cry or we don't, there are motives to cry, there are about a thousand or two thousand daily motives in the whole world. And after be like Lucifer who never prays, for the hungry peoples, for peoples at war, for peoples tortured by the powerful, if you don't allow them to pray you don't allow them to ask for mercy, because praying is also like asking for mercy. Do you see how difficult it is to be like Almafuerte? I'm more conciliatory as a poet. I believe in the transformation of societies.

 CS: And, the transformation of societies has to do with the transformation of the individual?

 MOM: Putting it that way it seems a lie.

 CS: It is a question.

 MOM: When I say I believe, I don't say how, I said that in believing in the transformation of societies and of cultures as I well see, we weren't always in the current way of production, how that kept changing. The only thing I say is that they may not give us freedom to live, that they may not give us freedom to eat, but the poet has the grace of not needing to be given that freedom to write, then I say how times change, how the world evolves, right away you asked me how, I didn't tell you that I was going to change it, I say: I have as a thought that the world keeps transforming itself since five thousand million years ago, so I would be an idiot if I think that the current society will be the definite humane society and that the current health will be the definite health, no, I think correctly, what happens is that I don't know how, I have no idea how this state of things can be changed. First of all I try to change myself, afterwards I try to change my friends, then I try to change my enemies, then I try to write about everything I see, feel, touch, because some genius who surely isn't me will understand what was happening to us. I don't know if I've made myself clear.

 Well, if you go on asking more question I can keep talking about this subject which is a subject in which I'm highly  interested. Because as I can't act I don't do anything, it is as if we wanted to construct a group, as we are doing with Cero Group, and evidently, each time that a participant enters for any motive, he/she more quickly benefits and more than I do, of course. So I feel envy or I don't feel envy, I am envious or I want the progress of humanity, I am envious or I want to generate a more comfortable way of living than the current one. Well, then I have to bear that each time a person comes closer to me, full of criticism, full of doubts and full of foolishness, in spite of all that person will benefit more than I. If I can't stand that, we are in the world, we are humans and some day in 2 or 3 thousand years they'll say "look at what these people did, having been able to capture all the fish…"

 AD: Then, writing must be the transforming machine.

 MOM: I don't want to put it that way, But yes, I do believe it. Why do I say that the transforming machine is writing? Because I'm no fool, I don't live as I write, I live as it was written before me.

 CS: "I think that my life is the life of a literary character, I can't get away much from that when I write".

 MOM: The guy is thinking in these things, don't you see what you are doing to me. The guy knew, when he wrote this he already knew. A literary character, look, let's see if one day I might think of it: "Let me tell you the truth". You don't let me, you say to me, what truth! You are here, you did that, you published so many books. "No, I'm a person suffering from inhibitions". "No, Menassa, you can't be that way, if you are known as a strong, courageous person". Do you understand?

 You have to understand this well, one is the writing, you have to understand it well because really one is writing. You investigated the past of the poets who say that your father was a Czech and your mother an Indian, if you do it, you're going to realise that many times it has nothing to do with the material reality, but perhaps has to do with some reality, what reality? The reality of writing, because that generates it in that way, as it is being said, as it is being written.

 What's the matter with you, Salamanca, are you sad? You would like to ask me about the Middle East.

 CS: I would simply want to ask you.

 MOM: You would like to work for the world.

 Did they finally hire you for El País?

 CS: No. It was you who they should hire as a forecaster of news.

 MOM: I have accomplished to be a completely free man, no one loves  me nor even the one whom I feed, nor even the one to whom I offer my knowledge, nor even the one who lives from my thought, no one loves me nor even the one who learnt to love by my side. The life of a creator is very interesting. Why? Who's going to love you if he can't possess you? I know, people can't be possessed. I know, but they have the illusion of possessing you.

 CS: Last Sunday I asked you who the great teachers were and you repeated it in the afternoon. Maestro is everyone who has done something before me.

 MOM: Who has done something before me…

 CS: And better than I.

 MOM: Well, the fact of having done it before means that he did it better, so much so that I to be able to surpass him I have to take him, I have to use him as junk, I have to use him, if you will, as raw material.

 CS: There is a very interesting thing, you also said that the writer doesn't know what he writes about, but he is forced to know about what he reads.

 MOM: It's all right, we will allow him to create whatever he wants but after reading, he has to know what he reads, when he reads a book he has to know what he reads about, because at this point he will show us what position he has in the world. It's all right, we give him the freedom, whatever he may write, writing cannot be repressed because there is an aspect in man that is that shit you wrote, but afterwards you will have to demonstrate that you know what you're reading about, because likewise when you read you only love the poverty of your writing, there are many writers like that. Look, if you get up one morning and open your eyes, Spain is full of that kind of writers. For example, we will forgive the stupidities that Paco Umbral writes, but he reads very badly, he understands everything the wrong way round. Or the ones from the School of Language, who think that people are born poets, they read badly, that is reading. They write, they write a lot of nonsense, they say that to be a writer is noble, to be a writer is like being a king, if you aren't born in the king's palace you are no prince.

 CS: Of course, that there can also be an ideology, but there are economic questions in the middle.

 MOM: What are you saying?

 CS: I mean that also, that thought has economic implications, market ones, the more writers there is the less the ones who already are, will earn…

 MOM: Writers earn nothing.

 CS: Well, the publishers.

 MOM: Yes, it may be for that reason. We have no growth, we haven't surpassed nor even the ancient Egypt. In ancient Egypt there was a spoken language which was only used by the people and there was a written language which was only understood by the powerful, why do I say the powerful? Because all the commercial transactions were made in the written language, therefore the people of Egypt couldn't make commercial transactions, we continue living in the same way. Our writers are still Romans, what can we do, or Greeks, which is more or less the same. Some  got directly drunk and the others a little latter because they poured water into the wine.

 CS: Then life has no sense.

 MOM: Well, if you want to put it not so bluntly, life has five billion senses. Life is like the unconscious desire. They end up saying that the unconscious desire has no object, why? Because all bug that walks is object of desire, which has no object, so it is the same for it if it is this or the other way. And that is the subject's life.

 Well, movies are in charge of showing us that life is the life of a decent worker, or life is the life of a wealthy person or the life of a poor, it is also the life of a criminal. If you think a little, you must have cried watching a well-produced movie when they killed the murderer or caught the criminal or the evil whore who cheated everybody, died at last and at this point, a big tear rolled down your cheek. Well, if someone cried when the murderer was killed, it means that they want us to believe that everybody has feelings, that everybody is life, that the murderer loves his mother.

 CS: We all carry a murderer inside us, don't we?

 MOM: I wouldn't say so, but of course, after 35 years of analysis. Neither a victim, because I am realising that if you accept a competition where you can win, you must accept to lose, one shouldn't participate in competitions where you can win or lose, that is to say, if I accept that any man has a killer inside, I also accept that all man has a victim inside, and I disagree with that in getting out of that dialectic. Because, let's see, Menassa, what are you a proletarian or a bourgeois? An old well-known Marxist from my childhood could have come to ask me, and I would say I'm not one thing nor the other, I'm an alien. To my understanding, my answer is a marxist answer. When somebody asks me, proletarian or bourgeois? If I would answer "I'm not one thing nor the other, I'm an alien", that answer would be a marxist answer.

 AD: Neither with madness or reason we can take possession of health…

 CS: Any comments about politics?

 MOM: You know what happens to me, sometimes the news hurt me so much that I try to avoid them, so if you help me… Nothing, you haven't even read the newspapers.

   Would you like me to tell you how ridiculous journalists are, today in El País they say "Argentina keeps falling into the abyss", but what I want to say is that in order to know how Argentina is they ask the opposition. And, why don't they ask Zapatero how Spain is doing? No, they ask that to Aznar, but for Argentina they ask Alfonsin's people, who were the ones who fell, what a bad luck. And besides they put it as a headline. In reality, inside the newspaper the current president says that in July they will come out of this situation. I don't know why he says such thing. I don't care if Argentina is right, I state how journalism is. They say they don't know which is the yellow journalism, but the truth is, they are the yellow journalists.

I'm sure that that report can have ten better headlines than the one they put, why did they put that one? or at this point they become uncultured? No, it is because they want to bother.

Amelia Díez wasn't surprised today that in the play Las Criadas (The Servants) they end up shouting "Argentina". Las Criadas by Genet.

Audience: There is a punishment which is to deport people to Argentina and they talk of going to Afghanistan and worse than Afghanistan is Argentina.

MOM: Didn't you realise that since the Argentine economic crisis increased, the advertising in Spain with Argentine people also increased?

CS: A lot of commercials.

 MOM: That is to say that what we understand is that everyone wants to earn some more, but that question that we all want to help our fellow man…that we already know, but it is known that everybody wants to earn a little more and that they take advantage of any situation to earn more money. I think that if the sale of newspapers decreases because people aren't interested in national politics and they stop being interested in football, I believe that a 100% of our journalists would see with pleasure the beginning of a war, only to sell more newspapers. We are in that situation.

 CS: I know that in the last statistics El País said: El País is the only newspaper which increases its sales, but it happens that they have come out with the promotion of the peseta bills (I know that a great part of the population is collecting them) so they took advantage to say that sales were increasing, they discontinued it for some time and they came out with it again. They use little tricks.

 MOM: Little tricks, you're too good.

 El País should be more careful because it was born with democracy, then they should always keep up that spirit, under any circumstance, and they're losing it, they already lost it.

 Now they want to solve with the "populares" the problem they have with Aznar. With the question of Felipe Gonzalez, whom they wanted to punish because they had behaved badly and I don't what else, the truth is that before Felipe Gonzalez had broken their ass with the Medical School, in the beginning the Medical School won a litigation they had with El País, and then El País rushed at the Medical School. I think that certain inexplicable medical plans they had were because they were vexed with the Medical School. Considering that press is the fourth power, they had become for an instant,  the fifth power.

 A scandal in all aspects, to show what the XX Century was, it says, poverty reached wealth.

There was a time, a stage in my life
where everything was possible for my ambitions.
There was an age. There was an age of solid gold,
where love and money were the same, because they came from God.

I used to lie on the diaphanous little whales
and I met vagabonds, criminals,
and I had the beauty that came from leisure and happiness
and some curious ones kissed me in the lips and drank spirits.

A time, an age, I still remember everything today.
A woman hanging from my shoulders and another woman
sliding through my most lusty dreams.

A woman and another woman and, even so, desperate night.
And another woman brandishing my sex as a shield,
illuminated smile, thirsty and ardent tempest.


I feel I'm growing at super-sonic speeds and I must say that that precisely makes me frightened.

Yes, I also was the worst, unmoveable rock disguised as a thirsty animal, the one who would never change, your greatest failure.

On tip-toes on future intentions, I see over-dried thoughts falling, empty shells which moulded my gaze with blows of silence.

So far, I dragged alien wills, firm omens for my steps, atavistic chains in my arms.

 I fancy for the future a mature woman, serene, quite wiser. My body moulded with rotundity by experience, trace of what was lived, made writing.

 A woman of intense attractiveness, a complete female, who bought her freedom because she understood the price:

 To resign the throne, to chain oneself to work.

 I fancy your proud gaze, when they grant me the Entrepreneur Woman of the Year Award.

 What I won't renounce is to go on loving you. Neither do I care that everything I'll do will be done to be worthy of your love.

 And don't say to me that your love I already have…


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Tel. 91 542 42 85. From 8 p.m. to 10 p.m.

   She says that she regrets having improved. Then there was half an hour of silence, where I thought that she doubted everything when she didn't want to doubt about herself.

 She, to conclude added:

 - How difficult life is on the couch! How terrible!

 - We continue the next time.

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   She sleeps at the foot of the mattress, which takes the place of a bed, on the floor. I get excited looking at her sleeping there and I think she doesn't sleep.

I slightly close my eyes and see her naked. I calculate desperately and promise myself that next week I'll study all week long. I touch her sleeping body and decide to wait until she becomes two. In the mean time, I gradually adapt the light to a semi-darkness and my heart starts to beat.

Oh, dazzled firefly by itself!

I thought that it was an impertinence to wake her up and that thought though it excited me more also allow me to go on writing.

What do you think?

Pornography   or     Eroticism

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To earn money. To spend money. They are aspects of the same drama. Someone who ends up giving his life for money. In reality, a worker.


Sexual relations don't exist. However, in capitalistic societies, sexual relations have the consistency of money, that existence.

I MUST SAY IT: I'm a writer, the rest was all research.

Having married twice, having had six children, having studied medicine, continuing to exercise that discipline even after more than thirty years, is part of the general knowledge that all writers should have.

 In the case of painting, certain extravagant sexual practices, gambling and certain revolutionary inclinations, everything was seeing, everything left in me traces of writing.

 I should have been made all over again and that is what would have happened, what was happening.



Tears of exile

75 pages
18 Euros, 3,000 Pts.

It contains thirteen illustrations of some of the best paintings of Miguel Oscar Menassa.


Indio Gris