Weekly magazine through Internet Indio Gris
Nº 100. THURSDAY, APRIL 23 TH ,2002



En las cumbres aladas


Indio Gris




Sunday, April 21st, 2002

Carmen Salamanca: We are going to publish Los otros tiempos (Other times) and Yo Pecador (Me, the Sinner), from 1970 and 1975, in Las 2001 Noches (2001 Nights), but in 1971, in between, there is the Cero Group First Manifesto. Several things from this manifesto captured my attention, I'd like you to explain a little to us how that time was. In the manifesto you explain the motives why you didn't enter the APA and because of which you joined Platform Group. It says: "We know that we aim to a finished product which has demanded for its completion long years of work". That about a finished work sounded as if the APA couldn't give anything more. Here you show some reasons why you joined the Platform Group, when Pichon Riviere accepts to psychoanalyse himself with Angel Garma, both of them being founders and the experience lasts four months.

Miguel Oscar Menassa: 15 questions, each time you resemble more a Spanish journalist. As I didn't answer you quickly, as they are each three minutes, you stopped me and you asked me 15 questions, that is what they always do. Don't you see that when children go to the radio they can't even talk, the only one who talks is the journalist. When it is my turn, I speak, but I answer whatever comes to my mind.

The 1971 Manifesto? In 1971, Buenos Aires was Greece in its splendour, Babylon in its splendour, an unforgettable process was about to be born. The world forgot about it and the Argentines, too. The only one who remembers it is me. It was an unforgettable process, we had  in our thought and in our words the chance to make a different country, here the military coup took place. The Argentine people had a sort of happiness for having thrown out a dictatorship, of being able to vote the candidate they wanted to vote, the entire left was in the government, what the left had been. In the same way that that entered in the people, more or less at the same time, perhaps some years before, psychoanalysis made its official appearance in Argentina; two currents appeared which destructed it: the Lacan trend and the materialistic epistemology. It is nowadays that I say they destroyed it, practically they no longer exist, but it was one of the most important organisations in the world and it produced psychoanalysts, now we don't know what it produces, now they are discussing if psychoanalysts have to be psychoanalysed or not, so that we don't know what it produces, but at that moment it produced psychoanalysts.

Not even Lacan followers were able to understand him, neither did the Argentine psychoanalytical society. The materialistic epistemology is interesting if one applies it on oneself, it is equal to the psychoanalysis, if I think that poetry is a work, it is a work and this means that I have to run the risk that you, one day, may work better than I. Now if poetry is born in my mother's womb, you won't ever be able to write as I do, nor better than I. they are two different conceptions of life. I remember having delivered a course on epistemology with Raul Sciarretta to the teachers of the APA, who after separated together with the Document Group, because there were two groups that splitted the international at that moment, a group called Document, which soon disappeared and had few publications and afterwards the Platform Group, which left no work published, it has no movement.

When you ask me that, in reality, you are asking about what happened with my life. I think that in the end what had to be done by Platform Group, that was to be the Freudian left, which was the way in which they introduced themselves, was a work which was done from 1971 to 2001, that is to say, 30 years of Cero Group. I think the Cero Group can be the Freudian left, because all those thoughts that have to do with the production of citizens such as Freud, Hegel, Marx, Lacan, Heidegger are taught in its classrooms. And then about 4,000 poets, because in the 71 Manifesto you can realise that many poets are mentioned, as if saying that if you don't have those poets within the system you can't found a group, you can't found a school. Well, really, there should be another thousand poets, it was a manifesto, one can't name them one by one.

What I'm going to do with the picture, that is to spread black everywhere is very ugly and I don't advise you do it, because it spoils everything, everything is spoilt. A very interesting conversation.

It was a very interesting moment. At that moment, for example. Allende was in Chile, Cuba was doing well, it was a moment in which we thought that Latin America might have had another destiny, everything was  interesting, there were new tendencies in all places. Exactly, nothing happened, but it happened, it was discovered that the ones who said they wanted to make the revolution were the children of the small bourgeoisie or the bourgeoisie, angry with their parents and, of course, the revolution failed.

CS: Yes, here you warned about that. It says: "That issue that can be seen superficially as a simple act of revelry of some wayward children from the great patriarchal family", I know that you aren't saying the same thing, you say not to get confused with that, "our index fingers born to point out,  show and gloat with that though, superficially, can be seen as a simple act of revelry from some wayward children". After, what you said about Bleger in the First Manifesto.

MOM: Read what it says.

CS: "We will allow that you name them, that you remember them, however we can't stop mentioning something that demonstrate clearly that wars are terrible, that someone will always have to die, that there will always be war scars, traces of war that are very painful because beloved beings suffer them, we are saying that we are sorry for the death of José Bleger".

MOM: The man hadn't yet died and Menassa said "we are sorry for the death of Pepe Bleger". Go on.

CS; "That from the beginning he fought for all the possible apertures of the psychoanalytical movement, committing lots of mistakes, it's true, but initiating many lines of thought of an inestimable value; but perhaps because of his age ( age sometimes causes these things), perhaps because of bad companions (bad companions many times influence really) at the moment of choosing, instead of choosing life, he chooses death".

MOM: Do you know why it says that? Because the guy was invited to process what was happening in Cuba (he was an important psychoanalyst who could have attracted others with him, other younger psychoanalysts) and Israel, and he went to Israel. Then Menassa says that he died, when he went to Israel. What  really happened is that he died of a heart attack two or three months later.

I have many stories like these, for example, it happened to me with Lacan followers, especially with one of them who was previously going to review the works that were going to be presented to J.A. Miller, the clinical cases, and it happened that the guy died from a heart attack in Tucumán, in an Argentine province, where, to tell you the truth, people die from hunger, nobody dies of a heart attack in Tucumán. A heart attack, how ridiculous!

CS: He was unique.

MOM: In San Miguel de Tucumán people die from starvation, from anger. Though I may die from a heart attack, I think that people who die from a heart attack are people who haven't given out their hearts in a balanced way.

AD: His ideas died, his heart died…

MOM: A grown-up who loves his mother more than his or her fiancée, that one has more probabilities of dying of a heart attack.

CS: Because he hasn't given out his heart in a balanced way…

 MOM: he hasn't given out his heart and his emotions in a balanced way.

 CS: You name Pichon Rivière. Did you know him well?

 MOM: I had a strong and important relation with Pichon Rivière, I'd been staying for a few days at his house.

 CS: Relation in the sense that you name him as a leader of the Platform movement.

 MOM: Well, that was what the Platform Group said, afterwards one should see if they did well. Pichon Rivière was the maestro of all the psychoanalysts that there were and there are in Argentina, in the sense that, don't you see that Argentines have an appetite for the grupal activities? That was invented by Pichon Rivière. And he was also a great clinic physician, he possessed a great psychoanalytical intuition, though when he wrote theoretically he wrote about other things, but he had a great psychoanalytical intuition. Besides he treated mad persons as normal persons, he treated psychoanalysts as if they were mad persons, he was a true genius, the guy. I stayed in his house for eight days, because I happened to ask him ( in a disrespectful way, I was very young, I was around 23) if he knew something about aesthetics, surely because it was something I didn't understand at that moment. He told me yes and got up, went to the library and started to bring aesthetics books, he covered the table with them, 220 aesthetics books, he had a huge library. He looked for certain pages and read me paragraphs, from each book he read me four or five paragraphs and this way we spent eight days sitting at the table. When I fell asleep, in an hour time he woke me up with a coffee and milk and we continued there sitting until he finished all the books and when he finished he told me: "I know nothing about aesthetics, it is everything in the books". But to know that I had to stay eight days reading without moving, without making love, that at that time to be eight days without making love, do you know how it was like? Well, I made love in that way, as Amelia Díez would say, but of course, that is something I can understand now that I'm almost at the cemetery, but it was difficult at that moment.

 CS: In the semen-terio? (Cementerio in Spanish)

 MOM: Yes, we called cemetery to the place where the dead are, I don't know how you call that here, perhaps they call it "florid dance"

 CS: No, I heard semen-terio.

 MOM: Ah! from semen. What happens is that cemetery is a very strong word for me. It might be that I don't dare to join it. Do you understand what I say?

 AD: It is different for the one who listens than for the one who says it…

 MOM: Please, Miss.

 CS: Tell us something more about Pichon Rivière.

 MOM: He had the School of Social Psychology that I think still exists. Pichon Rivière had to do with the invention of the suicide's telephone. He had this telephone and people called and all the people working on the telephone when a guy that wanted to commit suicide called, one had to ask him/her "whom do you want to kill?" and with that many suicides were avoided, because the truly important thing is to discover, together with Freud, that the suicidal person is a shy murderer.

 AD: They called him/her the anonymous suicidal person. 

 MOM: Yes, something like that.

 People that suffered a lot. I don't know what is true or what is a lie, for example, it was said that the first wife of Pichon Rivière (who was also a psychoanalyst), invited people for dinner and committed suicide. Odd people… One day she made a wall in the house, when he wanted to enter the house he couldn't. Very odd people, people who suffered a lot. Things always happened to him with the books, with the libraries. I had a problem with exile but I had to exile myself so that  the same things that happened to my maestro would happen to me, that always had problems with his library, he would lose it. Federico, one of our friends, maltreated a woman so badly, that she took his library with 5,000 books and 6 unpublished novels and gave them to a beggar who was going by for … 40 Euros. I exiled myself to destroy my library, so that the same thing that happened to Pichon Rivière could happen to me, but of course… Now, I have a very nice library, now yes, now I'm almost happy because I have a fantastic library.

 S.L.  always wants me I give an additional touch. He likes one of my paintings but he would have liked me to add another more brush stroke, he likes one of my theoretical works, but he would have liked it more corrected, he likes one of my classes but… I think that people ought to be shown things just as they are, what the hell! Afterwards I can demonstrate him that I can correct one class, I have already demonstrated it, some of my writings are classes made into writings, but I like the people to see them. for example, to do this that I'm doing, I don't know if he would do it, but as it is within my theory that one has to show how things are done, that the population shouldn't be deceived any longer. Maybe this is devaluating my painting, people say: "Look, what a beautiful painting!" and they tell them: "But if he did in 25 minutes and on top of it he does it while delivering a conference, while he quarrels with Miguel Martinez and while he answers Amelia Díez  a question she asked him last Wednesday morning". Nobody will pay for something that is made in such a way. Who's going to pay for it? But it doesn't matter, there must be intelligent people and we will find them. 

 AD: Things are made not born.

 CS: When you speak that way of linking that you have seems to be wonderful. Well, I read it.

 MOM: Read it, read it.

 CS: When you speak about separating yourself from Pichon Rivière, you abandoned the APA (Argentine Psychoanalytical Association), you formed the Platform Group, two groups are made, you say…

 MOM: No, no. Pichon Rivière is prior to Platform group, Platform group are the disciples of Pichon Rivière.

 CS: Well, it started then. It says: "The end of a therapeutic relation, the relation between Angel Garma and Pichon Rivière and the beginning of a crack in the bosom of the APA that caused a final and immortal separation in two groups which produces the appearance of the original repression in the psychic apparatus, founding two instances, the Unconscious and the Pre-Conscious, unreconcilable and different form that moment on. On one hand a group that thinks and that determines, their leader Enrique Pichon Rivière with his vicissitudes in the fight against repression.  On the other hand, another group appears and creates the false illusion of being the only one, their leaders, the others, their vicissitudes not to think, to repress, to hide. A group which won't be able to think because in no way the time for killing can be the time for creation".

 MOM: What does it mean? I want your idea, I'm also interested in your ideas.

 CS: I think that the APA stays in the place of pre-consciousness, that is what it seems, that creates the illusion of being unique.

 MOM: But that's no interpretation of yours, that was what happened, because if not, 30 or 40 years later it can't be that their psychoanalysts want to stop psychoanalysing themselves, it means the concept of unconsciousness doesn't exist in that school, because the unconscious as it is said by Freud is immortal. What does immortal mean? That it is born when the individual is born to the word and dies when the individual dies for the word.

 CS: Yes, but I think the reading that you made is marvellous, it surprises me because you were so young to think such things.

 MOM: We were very studious. We didn't think those things, those things were thought by Marx, were thought by Freud. Do you understand?

 CS: And don't you dare to ask where we took all that from, because as you know or at least should know, fantasy constitutes itself by après coup".

 MOM: That is Freud, that is Lacan, it isn't us. They say, how can it be that being a psychoanalytical school which teaches Freud and Lacan, they don't know that these people say these things?

 AD: They do it without them.

 CS: Last Sunday you talked about the importance of reading, it seems to me a good reading of the situation.

 AD: It is like pertaining to Cero Group without Menassa.

 MOM: How she loves me, that girl…

 AD : But there is some reason.

 MOM: She has some reason, how a movement, a group, will be without that one who is creating that movement, that group? Because the matter is that people participating of the group, of the movement, aren't thinking these things, they are using, they are trying to see how they fix their own things. Instead, Menassa's things are Cero Group, he has no other thing.

CS: "We didn't take our decision alone, we were helped and encouraged by many people, but some names appear clearly, Juan Carlos De Brasi, Armando Bauleo, Raúl Sciarretta, who, from the uncertainty of the theory or else from the certainty of the ideology, taught us that there was only one way of thinking and that that way occurred in clandestinity, away from any institution, in uncertainty, away from any psychological security, in silence, giving the back to repression".

MOM: It is a good question, now I will answer it, but you have to say, because it doesn't seem right that apart from those three names that were alive at that time (one of them died, Raúl Sciarretta), many teachers are named, you can't lose that. And those three alive men are named because it is true that it doesn't matter what the teacher does, it matters what the disciple thinks the teacher wants for him. Then, evidently, Armando Bauleo was a maestro in the subject of ideology, because far beyond the matter that things went well or not for him, he was the one who told me how things should be done, afterwards he couldn't do much, but, who is worried if the other can or not? I listened very much to Raúl Sciarretta in that sense at that time. And Juan Carlos De Brasi is named because he was the only person close to me, who more or less wanted something from theory, afterwards I knew no one else, of all my psychoanalysis teachers, none of them loved theory. Pichon Rivière was the revolution made into a song, the other I don't know what, the other one wanted to eat everything without knowing what he was going to eat… But they talked, they sent me to read Freud, they sent me to read Marx and I went and read. The only difficulty for them was that one, I imagine they recommended the same thing to everybody, but try to find someone who really reads. People remains with what the other says. Sometimes I say foolish things to see if the other one goes and reads, to see if they go and check. No, ten years go by and the guy made a complete elaboration with that foolishness that I said to send him to read and I didn't get him to read. My teacher's disgrace was that I was a reader. It was a disaster, the same with you people, you don't know the mess it would be for me if you sit down and read. Because I can't recommend you to go and read Freud and afterwards my whole life is opposite to the Freudian indications about life. Is it understandable or not? More or less.

CS: They sent you to read. Let's see, what does it say here: "To put it  in a wild way, unimaginable horns sounded in our heads. The First Surrealist Manifesto, when Breton charges ferociously against the Dadá Movement and abandons once and forever the security of uncertainty, when he proposes to sow children everywhere, when he chooses poetry, when he advises to set off along  the roads. Set off along the roads. The Neruda of Residencia en la tierra (Residence on earth), the Pavese of Trabajar cansa (Working makes you  tired), the Faulkner of Mientras yo agonizo (While I agonise) or Palmeras Salvajes (Wild Palm Trees), the Sartre who stubbornly speaks about freedom, which he never achieved, the Joyce of Ulises, the Miller who at forty decided to leave his office to become the writer, who would make fun of everyone and of himself, because it is the same in the end, death is unavoidable, the Vallejo of Los heraldos negros (The black heralds), the Maiacosvsky of La nube en pantalones (Cloud in trousers), the Esenín of his Guapo (The Brawler), the Arlt of Los siete locos (The seven crazy men), the Tuñón of La calle del agujero en la media (The street of a hole in the socks), and fundamentally, because if not you wouldn't understand a thing: the Marx of El capital (The capital), the Freud of La interpretación de los sueños (The interpretation of dreams). For sure, other horns sound today in our heads and an infinite happiness in our heart".

Those were the books which they sent you to read.

MOM: Of course, they sent me to read those books, I could care less if maybe they hadn't read them themselves, I read them with zeal because they seemed to me… It is true that I began to read Freud and Marx before I met these people, but precisely because of this I could know them so well.

One of them, who is now one of the directors of the Lacan School, gave me linguistics classes when I was very young and he talked to me about the linguistic value, and he explained it to me and when he finished I told him: "It is the same way of determining the concept of value in Marx" and the guy told me "No at all". I didn't answer anything to him but at that moment he had to leave to the Lacan School.

AD: He refused that someone else could be there, too.

MOM: Exactly, although the one who they would have to make appear was another one whom they wanted to sell. You can see this in the economic failure of the psychoanalytical international organisations, it seems that the guys didn't manage it correctly, they wanted to sell something that didn't suit them. Why should a psychoanalyst pose himself leaving psychoanalysis? because he doesn't like it, because he believes that the unconscious finishes, because of all the foolishness why fifth category patients don't follow a psychoanalytical treatment. That is serious, they continue working as psychoanalysts, they go on charging for interpreting the unconscious, but they have no unconscious. Gee! How strong, it is very strong.

See why they don't name me president of the whole world? Because I would send all those to peel potatoes and they are intellectuals, people that went to university, I would send them to plant potatoes and besides I would open a research among the cultivators of potatoes to see if some of them is worth for the university.

CS: Of course, you talked about the APA as a finished product, in that sense of immobility.

MOM: Immobility in the sense that the guys, when they posed themselves to read Freud according to the materialistic epistemology, they had to alter Fenichel's list, the last book Fenichel was reading, was The interpretation of dreams. In realising that The interpretation of dreams was the beginning of the psychoanalytical theory, so that if I want to study the  psychoanalytical theory I have to start by studying The interpretation of dreams. And afterwards to study Lacan as they did thinking that it was something new, without realising that Lacan was Freudian, another error, they divided the matter in two, the Lacan followers and the non followers of Lacan, when in reality, there aren't Lacan followers, there are Freudians, among them Lacan. Look at Lacan followers, who want to study Lacan without Freud, or with a little bit of Freud, or with a lot of J.A. Miller and little Lacan,  things are not doing well for them.

50-60 years were needed to see that it was an error. But Freud was very intelligent, Freud realised about that because before writing Más allá del principio del placer (Beyond the Principle of Pleasure), he had already realised that because of a wrong managing of the theory at that moment, people were pissing out of the jar, let's say. That is why he had to go further on the theory people believed it was the unconscious, beyond the theory of pleasure and displeasure, but because they were deviating from it.

AD: The people who thought those things before "Beyond the Principle of Pleasure", it's Ok, but that they think about it afterwards. What is scandalous is to think about it now.

 MOM: Not at that moment, at that moment it was being thought so that it would be easier for us. Now, we study it and we make it more difficult.

 AD: It isn't the same to be prehistoric before the Greeks than after the Greeks. 

 CS: Can I ask you a question about painting?

 MOM: Yes, please.

 CS: How have you done to put a black background and afterwards adding light colours on top and not stain them? The yellow didn't mix with the black below, is the black below dry?

 MOM: No, not at all. I didn't do it with the brush, I did it with the spatula. Nevertheless, here I'm doing it with the brush and the yellow doesn't stain with the black, either. I did it with a spatula not pressing it much. Do you understand?

 CS: Yes. before, when I said that Argentines have a taste for what is grupal, I remembered of a spot I saw yesterday on television in Discovery Channel. Of the Argentine Advertising Association, or something like that, the advertisers. It starts with two people looking at the camera and the background is Almafuerte's verses, Sonetos Medicinales (Medicinal Sonnets) " "If they humiliate you a hundred, you stand up…" all that sonnet as background and the people would say some phrase. Do you know what the spot was about? About the struggle against multiple sclerosis which produces a lot of symptoms: loss of balance, problems with uttering words, falls… It seemed incredible to me.

 MOM: That was what Pichon Rivière said in his first studies (it doesn't matter if he did them or not), the important thing is to think it as he said it), he said that he had studied all the grupal question, he had studied it in football teams, he liked football very much. They were about to make a film about Roberto Arlt, and came to ask me if I knew something because as I used to see Pichon Rivière quite often… And I told them a little but I think they didn't believe me, they didn't like the ideas I had.

 I think that The seven crazy men are seven friends of Roberto Arlt. "The melancholic brawler" was the image of Pichon Rivière, Arlt takes it from Pichon Rivière and he takes it well because Pichon Rivière when he spoke jokingly used to say the psychoanalyst was the brawler of anguish, the dandy of anguish, who earns a living with anguish, other people's anguish. Do you understand it?

 CS: Yes.

 MOM: His friends make him tear his first manuscript of The seven crazy men. The anecdote about football is that Arlt didn't like football, and one day he went with Pichon Rivière and fell in love with football. He explained to him the grupal components, " did you see what belonging is?" and the other was astonished. Arlt was a genial novelist and someone who could talk so much about that foolishness that football is, left him fascinated.

 If someone were behind me he would tell me that I have finished the painting.

 CS: So, in The seven crazy men the melancholic brawler was Pichon Rivière and here you mentioned six participants of the primitive Cero Group…

 MOM: Yes, the pride of any group in Buenos Aires was to be "the seven crazy men", it was a pride. It was very difficult.

 AD: Freud also formed a committee of seven.

 MOM: Yes, seven must be a cabalistic number. The painting is ready.

 CS: And don't you think that all this is in vogue today?

 MOM: Oh, yes.

I am not sorry for being
typical of this century.
Fragments of fragments,
indispensable unity for living,

That crack
to my possibilities of being alive
I fill with garbage, with drugs,
with sharp cries in emptiness.
I, too, don't give a damn
for politics
and the bad manners of fat ladies

I don't give literally a damn
for your filth
and the angelically white dresses
of the virgins.

As may see, my little orphans of love,
I am also a migratory bird.


Tango and I, darling, we are a grandiose thing.
And I go through life this way, feeling that what the tango didn't tell you Yet
I will tell you myself.
And I am like the tango, with eighths, with breaks, with falls, with backward steps.
nothing is direct in me, everything is dominated by the cadence.
intermittent, slow, embroidering the universe in each step.

 That is why I believe that your silence is a backward step, like a fall, never as if you stopped dancing with me. That is why I still write to you as if I were whispering in your ear, as if your chest were beating constantly against mine.

  In your ear, do you understand, as when your legs are intertwined with mine.

  I look forward to your letters as revolutions are waited for. That is to say, I wait for your letters actively, I paint and I write all day, to convince you that I have no time left to make love.


Practise French in Madrid
Tel. 91 542 42 85. From 8 p.m. to 10 p.m.

- Look, doctor, I think I have understood everything: not quitting smoking, nor quitting gambling, nor quitting fucking. To leave, I will have to leave the relations that imprison me.

- I have the necessity of feeling free, well, I have to write very important things.

- I look at myself in the delirious mirrors of today's world. The greatest deformities go by in front of my sight. The most secretive sins. The greatest foolishness. The most hidden hatred.

 - I have lived in my own family the most ridiculous events of the century, the serpents of madness and mendicity. I have seen my closest relatives walking the most sordid streets, looking for a piece of bread.

  - All the horror was shown to me.

 - All the breath of death and madness was thrown on me.

 - I haven't slept well for centuries and since one hundred years ago, the torturers don't even allow me to dream.

 - We continue the next time.

Cero Group 
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Cero Group 
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Amelia Díez Cuesta

Carlos Fernández

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Móvil: 607 76 21 04


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What betrays beyond love is always treason.

Any lover can forgive his couple going to bed with anyone, but if one talks with anyone about everything one hears by our side, that's treachery. It is better not to forgive, there is no more love.

What do you think?

Pornography   or     Eroticism

So far people have voted:

Pornography: 175.000                                    Eroticism:310.000

Cero Group Consulting Room


Miguel Martínez Fondón

Coordinator: Miguel Oscar Menassa

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91 758 19 40  (MADRID)




After the first three times, without a pinch of inventiveness, of talent, no relation, not even with poetry, remains alive, hot.


Everybody feels envious, it shouldn't be considered in no case.


Going out to the streets is expensive, the poor people say, and that becomes their lives.

I wanted to love, I wanted to make love and, in reality, I almost accomplish it.

I thought love was what was done in my motherland. How many times I was blind! Stupid, old-fashioned, moralist, son-of-a-bitch, a dog. How many times I tortured myself! I wanted to be the best in everything. I ended up wanting to fail better than anyone and almost accomplished it, if it weren't because anguish pointed out errors, I would have been blind up to death.



Tears of exile

75 pages
18 Euros, 3,000 Pts.

It contains thirteen illustrations of some of the best paintings of Miguel Oscar Menassa.


Indio Gris